I'm not a comic book reader. I've read the first issue of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, half of the Watchmen (someday I'll finish it), and some assorted Batman things. For the most part I just like certain superheroes on film or TV. I grew up on a healthy diet of Batman. Tim Burton's 1989 feature is still one of my favorite films, and was my absolute favorite movie as a kid. I used to always try and get home to watch "Batman: The Animated Series". That show is still good now, even as an adult. So If Batman is in it, I'm bound to go see it in the theater. Other heroes are kind of hit or miss for me. I've never been a huge Superman fan, and actually only saw the first movie as a kid...and didn't really dig it. As an adult I've watched all four movies, and while I really enjoyed the first film now, I found the rest of the series to be lacking the same charm. Superman II is actually decent, but neither the theatrical Lester cut nor the Donner cut is 100% great. I definitely preferred Donner's version, but there were high points to both.
I've always leaned more towards the DC heroes. Batman is about as good as you can get, and while he's never topped my list there is definitely something to be said of Superman. I also find both the Flash and Green Lantern appealing. The Flash has a great costume and I think there's something in his power that draws me towards him...the Scarlet Speedster! The Green Lantern has this crazy mythos that just fascinates me, and he is one of the few heroes in which his origin makes it easy to pass onto other characters, so there can be several Lanterns over the years.
When I was a kid the other heroes I liked were the Turtles, Power Rangers, and the X-Men cartoon show. Turtles were definitely the coolest of that bunch, and still are. I never really cared for Spider-Man when I was young, but the Raimi movies really turned me around on him...those are some good films, a lot of fun. The only Marvel hero that I really found alluring as a kid was Captain America. The film coming out this summer looks pretty good too, a lot better than the trailer for Green Lantern looked (I hope the trailer was misleading, but it just looked kinda too much special effects not enough story kinda thing, I hope I'm wrong).
for the most part I've been kinda jaded by superhero movies lately...theres just so many being shelled out, and because I'm not a reader of comics they just seem like...like not EVERY hero needs a film. I could care less about Thor. The Avengers doesn't particularly entice me, because I'm not a huge fan of crossovers (that said they ARE filming in Cleveland, and I've applied to be a production assistant...I probably WILL end up seeing it).
Anyhow, my job at this factory gives me 12 hours to just think about random things, and one of the things I've thought about lately is that Spider-Man film series. Now like I've said I've never read a Spider-Man comic...but I am a nerd, and I like looking things up, and when I see these movies I kind go on a wiki binge of looking up origins and comic storylines, and seeing how the movies compare, which version I think worked better. I'm not a purist when it comes to these things...because comics and TV and films and books are all such different mediums. Spider-Man in the comic pages HAS to be different from the film version. I don't get bent out of shape when Lord of the Rings or the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy films stray from their literary counterparts, because the books are STILL there. Both of those are good adaptations because, while certain things I like or loved from the books (granted I still haven't had a chance to read LOTR, but I did read the Hobbit) are missing...I can just look at the film as this separate entity.
So the Spider-Man films, my thoughts...well the first two are great, especially the second. The origin is out of the way, and Doc Ock ALWAYS looked like a cooler villain than the Green Goblin as a kid, and the film just furthered that perception for me. I even like the third film. Yeah. I said it. It has plenty of good visual effects and action and moments and scenes to still be an enjoyable film for me. That said, I can see its flaws...Structurally speaking, if Spider-Man 3's script were a house it would have collapsed in on itself. Its a mess, there is so much going on...too much going on, and it attempts so much and kind of falls flat in areas. While I enjoyed it, it doesn't hold up as well to scrutiny as the first two films.
I have a theory as to how you could fix it. Now it doesn't matter, my ideas are just thoughts and ramblings of a guy who has to work 12 hours doing mindless tedious work until he can find a job he doesn't hate. But here is my thoughts on the whole thing:
So Sam Raimi planned to finish off his trilogy with Sandman and Harry Osborn, but the fans became a problem. It has been my experience that fans have no idea what they want. They THINK they want something, and if somebody who doesn't want the same thing listens to them, they end up disappointed with what they got. So the fans of Spider-Man all love a certain villain. Venom. Look I get it, he's big and black and scary and cool...but they all clambered so much for it on the internet that someone at the studios heard them. So the studios began to push Raimi to include this symbiont monster in his film series. Now Raimi is a Spider-Man fan, he grew up on the comics. He was making films that tribute those very comics he grew up loving. So the villains had all been from that era...and he wanted to include one more before wrapping it all up: Sandman. Venom came from this era after Raimi grew up, he never read Spider-Man comics with Venom, therefore he didn't care about that character, and he had no interest in pursuing him.
But the fans were all moaning, and the studios pushed him, and he gave in. Venom would be in the movie. But he didn't want to relent on the story he already had in mind...he wanted to finish up the arcs he started and close off the series HE BEGAN. So he shoe-horned the symbiont and Venom storyline into an already packed script and what we got is a messy sloppy film. The problem is that it is two REALLY DIFFERENT films with two REALLY DIFFERENT toes with two REALLY PACKED plots. Things had to be dropped from each plot line, so holes are abundant.
Here is how I felt things could've worked - Instead of just giving in, Raimi should have compromised. There is such a emphasis on trilogies these days because of Star Wars, that everyone thinks you have to adhere to the three act structure and just make three films. Stop at three! While it is also true that some series can go on and on to the point that they lose all meaning, I sort of feel that you can make the occasional exception. I think Spider-Man should have been a four part series. In hindsight this makes the most sense to me.
So in this alternate reality I'm creating here is how it goes down. Spider-Man 3 picks up where 2 left off. The main villain is Sandman (because he was cool), leave it at him. So the story is about Peter Parker struggling to juggle being Spidey and fighting off the escaped convict turned super-villain Sandman (being a convict with sudden super powers is enough for our hero to want to defeat him, we don't need the personal connection of retconning this guy as being the TRUE killer of Peter's uncle), trying to make his new relationship with Mary Jane work out, and professionally trying to get the promotion to full time photographer against the new freelance guy Eddie Brock. So the movie should introduce elements of Venom and the symbiont (perhaps) but they should just be foreshadowing for the next and final installment of the series.
Harry Osborn should be limited to just training and figuring out how to work all his dad's equipment to become the new Goblin. He could try to work with Sandman maybe, but his main focus should be getting revenge himself, figuring out his dad's secrets and just training to be that new Goblin.
The film could even end on a bit of a cliffhanger. Have the symbiont coming down to Earth (guaranteeing the nerds that there wishes WILL come true and automatically securing butts in seats when the next film comes out for the studios). You end the film with Sandman defeated or being let go or whatever (it doesn't really matter to me), and you reveal that Harry is ready to be the New Goblin. You have a breif scene at the end where this new Goblin emerges, sort of like the scene where Harry discovers his father's lab near the end of Spider-Man 2.
I wouldn't even mind if this film had another climax with MJ in peril, and Peter/Spidey forced yet again to save her. My thoughts are that he succeeds, but his sort of lack of attention to her throughout the film and once again being put into deadly peril just because of her boyfriend should lead her to really reconsider their relationship...thus leaving Peter both relieved that he's defeated his enemy, and defeated that he's lost the girl he's tried so hard to get.
Spider-Man 4 would focus almost entirely on the symbiont/Venom storyline. You take all that stuff from the actual Spider-Man 3, and you expand it here. You start the film off with Peter really trying to leave Spidey behind him, and focusing on his career and Mary Jane. One of my problems with the actual movie is that Peter is ignoring the shit of her from the start, taking her for granted and being an arrogant jerk BEFORE he gets the symbiont attached to him. I think the idea of not focusing on her is fine, but he should be really trying before the symbiont takes over.
So with no real super villain in town, Peter is free to work at his personal life, but then Harry strikes as the new Goblin. I don't know, maybe he just uses the bombs to blow something minor up to get Peter's attention. Spider-Man reacts and we get a good fight scene. No one should win either, it should be like this new Goblin has been training harder than his father, and is more of a match for Spider-Man than Norman ever was...so the fight should end with Harry's board malfunctioning or something (due to some Spider-Man action), and Spidey getting away to recover.
Then Peter gets attached to the symbiont. Same kinda stuff as in the actual film, he gets attached, its weird for him at first...no knowing where it came from. But it feels good, and powerful, and he gets into it. So instead of the seen where black-suited Spider-Man confronts and fights Sandman in the subway...it should be this black-suited more powerful and angry Spider-man taking on Harry again. Peter should be fueled by the anger and annoyance that his old friend is out to get him because his dad was a dick, and he should really kick the crap out of Harry...so much so that he ends up in the hospital.
Spidey goes on fighting crime in this new symbiont suit, a little angrier than he once was. Instead of acting cocky and arrogant, he should just be a bit colder and distant to Mary Jane, shoving her away more than he ever has before. We should have the same little plot point in which Eddie Brock forges an image to get Peter's promotion, and Peter bitterly shows him for what he is in front of the Daily Bugle staff.
Mary Jane should flat out leave him, and that when Peter decides to go to the church and lose the symbiont (just as in the real film he should get a hint that bells weaken the suit). He sees what a mess he's made. Being an violent Spider-man, a jerk boyfriend, putting his oldest friend in the hospital, and ruining the career of a misguided young photographer...and he decides to take action. For me, the church scene, with Eddie Brock asking for help and Peter losing the suit should be the same as it was...and by the end Brock is both Venom and knows who Spider-Man really is.
Now you go on to the climax, in which we just get an all out showdown between Venom and Spidey in the streets of New York. Screw MJ in peril now, it should be just Venom rampaging and Spidey trying to stop him. Now we've got an end.
You wrap things up with Harry coming to or something thinking things over, and maybe even having the somewhat lame end of Harry coming to help his old friend. Venom could kill him in the process, and Pete could take down Venom with a similar chime end.
So there are my thoughts on how to make one mixed film into two solid films. I don't know if it would work...but my brain has been rambling about it for a while.
I've always leaned more towards the DC heroes. Batman is about as good as you can get, and while he's never topped my list there is definitely something to be said of Superman. I also find both the Flash and Green Lantern appealing. The Flash has a great costume and I think there's something in his power that draws me towards him...the Scarlet Speedster! The Green Lantern has this crazy mythos that just fascinates me, and he is one of the few heroes in which his origin makes it easy to pass onto other characters, so there can be several Lanterns over the years.
When I was a kid the other heroes I liked were the Turtles, Power Rangers, and the X-Men cartoon show. Turtles were definitely the coolest of that bunch, and still are. I never really cared for Spider-Man when I was young, but the Raimi movies really turned me around on him...those are some good films, a lot of fun. The only Marvel hero that I really found alluring as a kid was Captain America. The film coming out this summer looks pretty good too, a lot better than the trailer for Green Lantern looked (I hope the trailer was misleading, but it just looked kinda too much special effects not enough story kinda thing, I hope I'm wrong).
for the most part I've been kinda jaded by superhero movies lately...theres just so many being shelled out, and because I'm not a reader of comics they just seem like...like not EVERY hero needs a film. I could care less about Thor. The Avengers doesn't particularly entice me, because I'm not a huge fan of crossovers (that said they ARE filming in Cleveland, and I've applied to be a production assistant...I probably WILL end up seeing it).
Anyhow, my job at this factory gives me 12 hours to just think about random things, and one of the things I've thought about lately is that Spider-Man film series. Now like I've said I've never read a Spider-Man comic...but I am a nerd, and I like looking things up, and when I see these movies I kind go on a wiki binge of looking up origins and comic storylines, and seeing how the movies compare, which version I think worked better. I'm not a purist when it comes to these things...because comics and TV and films and books are all such different mediums. Spider-Man in the comic pages HAS to be different from the film version. I don't get bent out of shape when Lord of the Rings or the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy films stray from their literary counterparts, because the books are STILL there. Both of those are good adaptations because, while certain things I like or loved from the books (granted I still haven't had a chance to read LOTR, but I did read the Hobbit) are missing...I can just look at the film as this separate entity.
So the Spider-Man films, my thoughts...well the first two are great, especially the second. The origin is out of the way, and Doc Ock ALWAYS looked like a cooler villain than the Green Goblin as a kid, and the film just furthered that perception for me. I even like the third film. Yeah. I said it. It has plenty of good visual effects and action and moments and scenes to still be an enjoyable film for me. That said, I can see its flaws...Structurally speaking, if Spider-Man 3's script were a house it would have collapsed in on itself. Its a mess, there is so much going on...too much going on, and it attempts so much and kind of falls flat in areas. While I enjoyed it, it doesn't hold up as well to scrutiny as the first two films.
I have a theory as to how you could fix it. Now it doesn't matter, my ideas are just thoughts and ramblings of a guy who has to work 12 hours doing mindless tedious work until he can find a job he doesn't hate. But here is my thoughts on the whole thing:
So Sam Raimi planned to finish off his trilogy with Sandman and Harry Osborn, but the fans became a problem. It has been my experience that fans have no idea what they want. They THINK they want something, and if somebody who doesn't want the same thing listens to them, they end up disappointed with what they got. So the fans of Spider-Man all love a certain villain. Venom. Look I get it, he's big and black and scary and cool...but they all clambered so much for it on the internet that someone at the studios heard them. So the studios began to push Raimi to include this symbiont monster in his film series. Now Raimi is a Spider-Man fan, he grew up on the comics. He was making films that tribute those very comics he grew up loving. So the villains had all been from that era...and he wanted to include one more before wrapping it all up: Sandman. Venom came from this era after Raimi grew up, he never read Spider-Man comics with Venom, therefore he didn't care about that character, and he had no interest in pursuing him.
But the fans were all moaning, and the studios pushed him, and he gave in. Venom would be in the movie. But he didn't want to relent on the story he already had in mind...he wanted to finish up the arcs he started and close off the series HE BEGAN. So he shoe-horned the symbiont and Venom storyline into an already packed script and what we got is a messy sloppy film. The problem is that it is two REALLY DIFFERENT films with two REALLY DIFFERENT toes with two REALLY PACKED plots. Things had to be dropped from each plot line, so holes are abundant.
Here is how I felt things could've worked - Instead of just giving in, Raimi should have compromised. There is such a emphasis on trilogies these days because of Star Wars, that everyone thinks you have to adhere to the three act structure and just make three films. Stop at three! While it is also true that some series can go on and on to the point that they lose all meaning, I sort of feel that you can make the occasional exception. I think Spider-Man should have been a four part series. In hindsight this makes the most sense to me.
So in this alternate reality I'm creating here is how it goes down. Spider-Man 3 picks up where 2 left off. The main villain is Sandman (because he was cool), leave it at him. So the story is about Peter Parker struggling to juggle being Spidey and fighting off the escaped convict turned super-villain Sandman (being a convict with sudden super powers is enough for our hero to want to defeat him, we don't need the personal connection of retconning this guy as being the TRUE killer of Peter's uncle), trying to make his new relationship with Mary Jane work out, and professionally trying to get the promotion to full time photographer against the new freelance guy Eddie Brock. So the movie should introduce elements of Venom and the symbiont (perhaps) but they should just be foreshadowing for the next and final installment of the series.
Harry Osborn should be limited to just training and figuring out how to work all his dad's equipment to become the new Goblin. He could try to work with Sandman maybe, but his main focus should be getting revenge himself, figuring out his dad's secrets and just training to be that new Goblin.
The film could even end on a bit of a cliffhanger. Have the symbiont coming down to Earth (guaranteeing the nerds that there wishes WILL come true and automatically securing butts in seats when the next film comes out for the studios). You end the film with Sandman defeated or being let go or whatever (it doesn't really matter to me), and you reveal that Harry is ready to be the New Goblin. You have a breif scene at the end where this new Goblin emerges, sort of like the scene where Harry discovers his father's lab near the end of Spider-Man 2.
I wouldn't even mind if this film had another climax with MJ in peril, and Peter/Spidey forced yet again to save her. My thoughts are that he succeeds, but his sort of lack of attention to her throughout the film and once again being put into deadly peril just because of her boyfriend should lead her to really reconsider their relationship...thus leaving Peter both relieved that he's defeated his enemy, and defeated that he's lost the girl he's tried so hard to get.
Spider-Man 4 would focus almost entirely on the symbiont/Venom storyline. You take all that stuff from the actual Spider-Man 3, and you expand it here. You start the film off with Peter really trying to leave Spidey behind him, and focusing on his career and Mary Jane. One of my problems with the actual movie is that Peter is ignoring the shit of her from the start, taking her for granted and being an arrogant jerk BEFORE he gets the symbiont attached to him. I think the idea of not focusing on her is fine, but he should be really trying before the symbiont takes over.
So with no real super villain in town, Peter is free to work at his personal life, but then Harry strikes as the new Goblin. I don't know, maybe he just uses the bombs to blow something minor up to get Peter's attention. Spider-Man reacts and we get a good fight scene. No one should win either, it should be like this new Goblin has been training harder than his father, and is more of a match for Spider-Man than Norman ever was...so the fight should end with Harry's board malfunctioning or something (due to some Spider-Man action), and Spidey getting away to recover.
Then Peter gets attached to the symbiont. Same kinda stuff as in the actual film, he gets attached, its weird for him at first...no knowing where it came from. But it feels good, and powerful, and he gets into it. So instead of the seen where black-suited Spider-Man confronts and fights Sandman in the subway...it should be this black-suited more powerful and angry Spider-man taking on Harry again. Peter should be fueled by the anger and annoyance that his old friend is out to get him because his dad was a dick, and he should really kick the crap out of Harry...so much so that he ends up in the hospital.
Spidey goes on fighting crime in this new symbiont suit, a little angrier than he once was. Instead of acting cocky and arrogant, he should just be a bit colder and distant to Mary Jane, shoving her away more than he ever has before. We should have the same little plot point in which Eddie Brock forges an image to get Peter's promotion, and Peter bitterly shows him for what he is in front of the Daily Bugle staff.
Mary Jane should flat out leave him, and that when Peter decides to go to the church and lose the symbiont (just as in the real film he should get a hint that bells weaken the suit). He sees what a mess he's made. Being an violent Spider-man, a jerk boyfriend, putting his oldest friend in the hospital, and ruining the career of a misguided young photographer...and he decides to take action. For me, the church scene, with Eddie Brock asking for help and Peter losing the suit should be the same as it was...and by the end Brock is both Venom and knows who Spider-Man really is.
Now you go on to the climax, in which we just get an all out showdown between Venom and Spidey in the streets of New York. Screw MJ in peril now, it should be just Venom rampaging and Spidey trying to stop him. Now we've got an end.
You wrap things up with Harry coming to or something thinking things over, and maybe even having the somewhat lame end of Harry coming to help his old friend. Venom could kill him in the process, and Pete could take down Venom with a similar chime end.
So there are my thoughts on how to make one mixed film into two solid films. I don't know if it would work...but my brain has been rambling about it for a while.
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